General Discussion -  The cause of illness and disease (52 views) Subscribe   
  From:  inhiskingdom   12/11/2004 6:04 am  
To:  ALL   (1 of 21)  
 
  925.1  
 
Greetings in the name of Jesus.

Jesus gives us many ways to be healed in the word of God. Some on our own faith, some by the prayer of faith by the elders of a church, some by the gifts of healing and others by obeying what is given as believing when we ask that we have.

Why are these necessary? Jesus does not want the evil one to be in charge of our lives, to give us diseases and to torment us. Notice in one scripture Jesus tells the man He had made whole in John 5-14: "Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee." Does this not show us that sin will give us problems?

Notice our faith can make us whole. All scripture has to be understood by our spirit for it to be truth to us. As an example of seeing if a doctrine is correct we are told in 1st John 4 1-3 that we are to hear the spirit confess, if Jesus Christ has come in the flesh, to see if it is of God. Now in the natural we know that a *person* can say that Jesus has come in the flesh even if that person is an athiest but *in the spirit*, when we hear the voice of our Shepherd, an evil spirit CANNOT say that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh. THIS is how we are to know all scripture FROM THE SPIRIT.

When we sin, even though we do not understand what sin, are we following Christ? And if we continue in this sin, even though we do not know what it is: are we following Christ? And if we do not repent, if we do not seek enough to find the truth of His word, are we not following the evil one? And then who is in charge of what we are given? Is it not him? THAT is why we have the same power, to eliminate the sickness that we are given by repentance when we suffer enough to be able to understand the sin again as it is written in scripture, "when the body suffers, sin will lose its power." If we do not repent, our body will suffer and when we have faith in the word and act upon it, and go back to following what we know to be truth, in the word of God, our sin is forgiven and we are healed. Faith in what is written.

The faith that heals us is the faith in the word of God, when we act upon it as in the scripture: "by His stripes we were healed", when our belief in what Jesus has done for us by taking the stripes on the cross is stronger than the pain or symtoms we have of the disease, we are healed. Is that not what was done with salvation? We believed more in what Jesus had done for us than we did what the circumstances were and accepted what He did.

In His Love
Norb
 
  
   Options  Reply Delete Edit   
Rate 
  
    
 


  From:  voiceinthewi   12/11/2004 1:17 pm  
To:  inhiskingdom   (2 of 21)  
 
  925.2 in reply to 925.1  
 
Hey Norb,

While I DO believe in divine healing, and have been healed myself miraculously, I do not believe everyone can, or will be healed. I do not find that anywhere in scripture.

"The faith that heals us is the faith in the word of God, when we act upon it as in the scripture: "by His stripes we were healed", "

The passage you refer to here, from Peter I presume, is originally found in Is. 53 and has nothing to do with physical healing in either book when taken in context. There are passages which specifically speak of God as our healer, but this is not one of them. It is speaking of God healing us from the greatest disease/infirmity, namely sin and the subsequent separation from God.

As for the idea of being free from all suffering, what about the apostle Paul? He asked God to deliver him 3 times, and was told no 3 times, that the grace of God was sufficient for him.

That's my take,
Voiceinthewilderness

 
  
   Options  Reply Delete Edit   
Rate 
  
    
 


  From:  inhiskingdom   12/11/2004 1:43 pm  
To:  voiceinthewi   (3 of 21)  
 
  925.3 in reply to 925.2  
 
Hi.

I agree with you that everyone will not be healed. When we sin, our body has to suffer, as it will, so we will not follow after sin. 1st Peter 4 1-2.

I do not agree with you that the stripes Jesus took on the cross were not for our physical healing. Here is part of a prophecy on healings from day 21 of the teachings.

"My word says I am the healer; I have healed him with my stripes when I was placed on the cross, but if that individual does not believe this, Satan has the right, the authority, to bring the disease back on the individual that was healed. When the individual learns of me, when he believes my word, he is able to rebuke Satan in my name, to bind him in my name, to cast him off in my name, then Satan has to leave, and he will keep his healing. I am the Messiah. I have spoken. Is this not truth?"

This was for using the *gift of healings* as a ministry. There are other prophecies about why the diseases. I will find them and get back with you.

In His Love
Norb
 
  
   Options  Reply Delete Edit   
Rate 
  
    
 


  From:  voiceinthewi   12/11/2004 6:42 pm  
To:  inhiskingdom   (4 of 21)  
 
  925.4 in reply to 925.3  
 
Hey Norb,

I'm not even sure how to go about discussing your prophecies.

Voiceinthewilderness
 
  
   Options  Reply Delete Edit   
Rate 
  
    
 


  From:  inhiskingdom   12/12/2004 7:33 am  
To:  voiceinthewi   (5 of 21)  
 
  925.5 in reply to 925.4  
 
Hi.

<I'm not even sure how to go about discussing your prophecies.>

Why not read them all and see if they fit in with what scriptures teach, not from a standpoint of what you have believed but if they fit in with ALL of the scriptures? THEN if you have questions, ask them.

Why not start with day 17 of the first book, the truth about salvation: on http://www.inhiskingdom.net .

In His Love
Norb



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Edited 12/12/2004 10:35 am ET by inhiskingdom 
  
   Options  Reply Delete Edit   
Rate 
  
    
 


  From:  voiceinthewi   12/12/2004 5:08 pm  
To:  inhiskingdom   (6 of 21)  
 
  925.6 in reply to 925.5  
 
Norb,

My not being sure about how to even discuss your prophecies had nothing to do with my not knowing what they say.

I mean no offense here, honestly, but.... I know that they are meaningful to you, but from my experience and perspective personal prophecies are subjective, and therfore not open to debate, question, or even rational discussion. You believe they are words given you by God Himself. I on the other hand have no way of knowing that to be the case, so for me they don't carry the same import.

I don't really see how I can engage in discussion about something so subjective.

Voiceinthewilderness

 
  
   Options  Reply Delete Edit   
Rate 
  
    
 


  From:  inhiskingdom   12/13/2004 7:22 am  
To:  voiceinthewi   (7 of 21)  
 
  925.7 in reply to 925.6  
 
Hi.

No offense taken. How about reading and looking for scripture to back up what is said and understanding from the Holy Spirit standpoint, from the spirit, instead of from our flesh, our minds, our thoughts? Remember Jesus said to Peter when he finally understood from his spirit, "flesh and blood hath not revealed this to you but my Father which is in heaven", from the Holy Spirit.

Have you prophesied? Or been given the utterance of tongues? 

In His Love
Norb
 
  
   Options  Reply Delete Edit   
Rate 
  
    
 


  From:  btdtalready   12/13/2004 10:14 am  
To:  voiceinthewi   (8 of 21)  
 
  925.8 in reply to 925.6  
 
Hello voice,

I agree with you regarding Norb's "prophecies": 

"I know that they are meaningful to you, but from my experience and perspective personal prophecies are subjective, and therfore not open to debate, question, or even rational discussion. You believe they are words given you by God Himself. I on the other hand have no way of knowing that to be the case, so for me they don't carry the same import."

Therein lies the crux of the problem! After many, many years of study and soul searching I have come to feel, about Biblical scripture and prophecy, the same as you so eloquently expressed about Norb's prophecies! "You believe they are words given by God Himself. I on the other and have no way of knowing that to be the case"...........

How do we KNOW God "spoke" to the ancient prophets and NOT Norb? 

It is, indeed, all subjective.

Not trying to start an argument, just genuinely interested in your perspective on how anyone CAN possibly ever tell the difference?
 
  
   Options  Reply Delete Edit   
Rate 
  
    
 


  From:  voiceinthewi   12/13/2004 12:31 pm  
To:  inhiskingdom   (9 of 21)  
 
  925.9 in reply to 925.7  
 
Norb,

No I have not prophesied, either in tongues or english. I have been around both over my 26+ yrs as a believer. My own experience based on my observation, is they are not as the phrophecies given in God's word with regard to infallibility.

Even Paul said we know in part, and prophecy in part. I don't believe anyone is prophecying infallibly today.

Voiceinthewilderness
 
  
   Options  Reply Delete Edit   
Rate 
  
    
 


  From:  voiceinthewi   12/13/2004 12:37 pm  
To:  btdtalready   (10 of 21)  
 
  925.10 in reply to 925.8  
 
Hey BT,

"how anyone CAN possibly ever tell the difference?"

I guess that if they hold true to the scriptures, then really only time will tell. Obviously if they contradict scripture, well....null and void.

I have over the yrs. heard so many crazy things "prophesied", it really has me in skeptic mode, ya know? 

I trust in the bible as God's infallible word. I make no claim whatsoever to understand it well, but I'm working on it. Seems though the longer I'm at it, the more I realize how little I know.

Voiceinthewilderness
 
  
   Options  Reply Delete Edit   
Rate 
  
    
 


  From:  inhiskingdom   12/13/2004 2:32 pm  
To:  voiceinthewi   (11 of 21)  
 
  925.11 in reply to 925.9  
 
Hi.

I don't understand in the other post you stated you received the Baptism, tongues and the whole nine yards. Now you state you have never prophesied in English or tongues.

Have you obeyed Paul to pray that you may interpret the unknown tongues as Paul tells us to in 1st Corinthians 14 13-15? When we act in faith and obey we are able, the interpretation would be the same as prophesying. The church would receive the understanding of what was said by the Holy Spirit.

As you see with Jonah, he prophesied and it did not come to pass. God can change His mind and does when conditions change. Is that not a purpose of prophesying, edifying the body of Christ so that the voice of our Shepherd is given to all, to cause change if change is needed to be obedient to God?

In His Love
Norb
 
  
   Options  Reply Delete Edit   
Rate 
  
    
 


  From:  inhiskingdom   12/13/2004 2:35 pm  
To:  voiceinthewi   (12 of 21)  
 
  925.12 in reply to 925.10  
 
Hi.

<I make no claim whatsoever to understanding it well, but I'm working on it.>

Notice how Paul tells us to learn in 1st Corinthians 14-31.

In His Love
Norb
 
  
   Options  Reply Delete Edit   
Rate 
  
    
 


  From:  voiceinthewi   12/13/2004 6:16 pm  
To:  inhiskingdom   (13 of 21)  
 
  925.13 in reply to 925.11  
 
Hi Norb,

"I don't understand in the other post you stated you received the Baptism, tongues and the whole nine yards. Now you state you have never prophesied in English or tongues."

"The whole nine yards" was a colloqueism, not my staing that I had ALL 9 Gifts. My Understanding is that prophecying and the prayer language of tongues are 2 distinct things. 

The gift of tongues (1 Cor 12) is speaking to the corporate body, as opposed to our "prayer language" tongues, which is between me and my God.

As for God chaning His mind, I don't believe it is possible. ( Maybe a good separate topic thread, as it gets off topic on this one)

Voiceinthewilderness

 
  
   Options  Reply Delete Edit   
Rate 
  
    
 


  From:  voiceinthewi   12/13/2004 7:02 pm  
To:  inhiskingdom   (14 of 21)  
 
  925.14 in reply to 925.12  
 
Hi Norb,

do you understand "31 For you can all prophesy in turn so that everyone may be instructed and encouraged. 1 Cor 14:31 (NIV)" to mean that EVERYONE can prophecy?

Voiceinthewilderness

 
  
   Options  Reply Delete Edit   
Rate 
  
    
 


  From:  inhiskingdom   12/14/2004 6:22 am  
To:  voiceinthewi   (15 of 21)  
 
  925.15 in reply to 925.13  
 
Hi.

The initial evidence of the filling was given when all were filled and were given the utterance of tongues, with His Spirit in Acts 2-4 and again in Acts 10 44-47 and again in Acts 19 1-7. The *GIFT* they received is the Holy Spirit, the Comforter, the evidence of receiving Him is the utterance given.

The *gift* of *diversities of tongues* not all will have, to minister in different tongues that those that are set in the church by God will have, is listed with apostles, prophets, teachers etc. This is what the disciples were given to witness in different languages at Pentecost which not all will have. All gifts have diversities of these gifts, differences of administration of these gifts and diversities of operations as shown in 1st Corinthians 12 4-6. So a single gift can have many ways of operating.

Notice healing, Jesus told one that He healed that the persons faith made him whole, one He healed that did not even believe in Him, so how could *his* faith make him whole? and we are told we can be healed by calling for the elders of the church to pray the prayer of faith, also by believing that we have when we ask. The same is truth for all gifts. As you said with the prayer language, we are to worship our God *in the spirit*, this is what Paul tells us He does in 1st Corinthians 14 13-15, that we are to do and pray that we may interpret these tongues so we know what is said.

But the only evidence given in scripture when someone was filled with the Holy Spirit was when He gave them the utterance, it is the Holy Spirit speaking through a believer, in either tongues, which when interpreted will do the same as prophesying, give a message from God to the body of Christ, His church. So if you were given the prayer language, you have the evidence of being filled. Then we are available to be used by any gift that the Holy Spirit wants to use us for and the more we understand and act in faith upon a gift, the more we are available for this gift. The Holy Spirit will not give us a gift if we do not know how to use it or *be used by it*.

<As for God changing His mind, I don't think it is possible>

We only need to look at Jonah, he was told to prophesy that Nineveh would be overthrown in forty days and when they repented, God changed His mind. If a country is wicked, then turns to Him, why would He still destroy it?

In His Love
Norb
 
  
   Options  Reply Delete Edit   
Rate 
  
    
 


  From:  inhiskingdom   12/14/2004 6:29 am  
To:  voiceinthewi   (16 of 21)  
 
  925.16 in reply to 925.14  
 
Hi.

<Do you understand 31, "For you can all prophecy in turn so that everyone may be instructed and encouraged to mean that EVERYONE can prophesy?>

As long as they have the initial evidence of being filled with the Holy Spirit, then He can use us with any gifts when we act upon what is given by our faith. As we can see in 1st Corinthians 14 13-15, Paul tells us to pray that we may interpret what is given in tongues, so that all may understand. This is done by believing what is written and acting upon what is written with our faith, notice the preface of the book on http://www.inhiskingdom.net . I set out to prove this scripture to pray that we may interpret and the Holy Spirit gave me 70 mornings of prophecy. We are told to covet to prophesy, why would Paul tell us to covet something we cannot all have?

In His Love
Norb

 
  
   Options  Reply Delete Edit   
Rate 
  
    
 


  From:  voiceinthewi   12/14/2004 4:36 pm  
To:  inhiskingdom   (17 of 21)  
 
  925.17 in reply to 925.16  
 
Hey Norb,

You ask "We are told to covet to prophesy, why would Paul tell us to covet something we cannot all have?"

In the outlining of the gifts, notice vs 10 to "another" prophecy.

Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good.8 To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit,
9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit,
10 to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues.
11 All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines. 1 Cor 12:8-11 (NIV)

Paul was not telling US, he was instructing the Corinthians, who were apparently abusing the gift of tongues, and giving it priority above ALL the others. According to the text above, NOT ALL WILL PROPHCEY. At least that's my take.

I went to your site, and to be quite honest, I have neither the time nor the inclination to read through 100 days of you prophecies. I mean absolutely no disrespect, nor offense, but remember my current circumstances? They leave me with barely enough time to post anything at all.

Voiceinthewilderness

 
  
   Options  Reply Delete Edit   
Rate 
  
    
 


  From:  voiceinthewi   12/14/2004 4:44 pm  
To:  inhiskingdom   (18 of 21)  
 
  925.18 in reply to 925.15  
 
Norb,

I started a new thread about whether or not God changes His mind. I don't want to drift off topic here with yet another "stand alone" thought.

Voiceinthewilderness
 
  
   Options  Reply Delete Edit   
Rate 
  
    
 


  From:  inhiskingdom   12/15/2004 9:16 am  
To:  voiceinthewi   (19 of 21)  
 
  925.19 in reply to 925.17  
 
Hi.

When we are filled with the Holy Spirit as we are told, if we are His disciples to wait for before we witness and what Peter tells us that the promise of the Father that was sent back to us at Pentecost was for all that were called of God what they *saw and heard* at Pentecost, would this not *anable* us to prophesy, WHEN we can be used of God? 

Notice Paul also said that all may prophesy, one by one, so all can learn and all can be comforted. The Holy Spirit will give the gifts to whomever, but is it not up to us to be available for any of the gifts and when we are, when we consider that prophesying is the Holy Spirit giving the utterance from within the ones, the believers that have been filled with Him and ALL that are filled will be given the utterance, are we not all available for the gift of prophesying? If He is not a respecter of persons, if the same conditions are met of a believer, are we not all available to speak what He gives us?

I was not able to prophesy until I acted on what Paul said and when I did, I was able to speak in the utterance in the known tongue. 

In His Love
Norb
 
  
   Options  Reply Delete Edit   
Rate 
  
    
 


   From:  inhiskingdom   12/15/2004 9:17 am  
To:  voiceinthewi   (20 of 21)  
 
  925.20 in reply to 925.18  
 
Hi.

Understood. Have found it.

In His Love
Norb
 
  
   Options  Reply  
 
From:  HR581   12/30/2004 3:50 pm  
To:  voiceinthewi unread  (21 of 21)  
 
  925.21 in reply to 925.2  
 
As for the idea of being free from all suffering, what about the apostle Paul? He asked God to deliver him 3 times, and was told no 3 times, that the grace of God was sufficient for him.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>...
Paul was torment by an evil spirit (demon possess person). God later removed it from him.

2 Tim 3:11 Persecutions, sufferings--such as occurred to me at Antioch, at Iconium, and at Lystra, persecutions I endured, but out of them all the Lord delivered me.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Edited 12/30/2004 6:54 pm ET by HR581 
  
   Options  Reply  
